[UA] Post-postmodern

[Benn Beaton]

You make some interesting points but as i find your arguement's points to be
compelling i find your conclusion less so.
This to me is quite important as i think it is a differance of language use
from both of us. Not that this is a common postmodern problem or anything:)

In your arguement you state...
"it doesn't really look like things are on a path back
to tradition.  "New sincerity(n.s.m)" might be a relatively accurate way to
look at some aspects of emerging cultures."

and

"But in my mind what's emerging isn't a return to a centralized
narrative, but a combination of "I'm ok, you're ok" and "wait and see"
positions."

However your quotes seem to only consider premodern traditions.  If we
consider modernist traditions like scientific method, liberalism and
conservatism, then might this "new sincerity movement" be akin to a
combination of these.  If we ditch the philosophy for ten seconds and look
at democraticly constructed states with coalition governments then what
usually emerges is a power sharing arrangement based around societal
concience and ethical concern.  Indeed it is not uncommon for an old party
to emerge as a party of power and require a smaller partner which can force
legislation in order to guarrantee supply to the government.  If we use this
as a model to consider the three outlined traditions with the
ultramodernistic scientific method as party of power and the conflicting
liberal and conservative ideals as junior parties to this coalition then
what you would have is a modernistic movement that would change character
based on the political ideology it was running with.  If it had a liberal
agenda then it might be about improving peoples lot in life. If it had a
conservative agenda then it would seek to maintain the established set of
rules untill evidence showed that change would be better than the
maintenance of a rule set.

Later when you speak of empiricism and whimsy i feel that you are again
speaking of common political traditions of regulation and tollerance.  21st
century politics shows that people tend to want a bit of both and switch
between poles to a degree based on individual issues.

As for how this would affect the Underground I see the liberal idea that
people can follow any path they choose to be more embracing of avatars.  Its
how he is would become a common refrain, She's a leo, It might be harder to
avoid breaking taboo for an unconcious avatar but other than that it should
be fine.  I also see the conservative model being one that embraces
traditional avatar notions of duty to a cause (pilgrim), defeatying an
enemy(warrior).  As for Adepts, given that they are born of obsession If
they were a part of a modernist empirical tradition like the N.S.M then they
would be less likly to use random magic on the fly and more likely to be
either calcify with specific spell effects.  The movement might even have a
specific adept type the way the cult of the naked goddess has pornomancy but
again this would depend entirely on the details of the cults agenda.

The idea that you can impose understanding on the universe is after all an
excellant place to build a symbolic tension.


On 4/6/08, Peter Kisner <kisnerp at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm not well versed in these movements, so please pardon the fact that
> what I'm about to say is pulled directly from my ass.  But this
> discussion's been niggling at my mind for the last few days so I feel
> compelled to chime in anyway.
>
> * Traditionalism:
> The traditional way of accomplishing things is good enough. (ie. the
> old stories and meanings are adequate)
>
> * Modernism:
> "[Modernism] is a trend of thought that affirms the power of human
> beings to create, improve, and reshape their environment, with the aid
> of scientific knowledge, technology or practical experimentation.
> Modernism encouraged the re-examination of every aspect of existence,
> from commerce to philosophy, with the goal of finding that which was
> 'holding back' progress, and replacing it with new, progressive and
> therefore better, ways of reaching the same end."
> - Wikipedia
>
> * Postmodernism
> "To be postmodern is to reject the idea of a core centralised
> narrative to describe the world."
> - Ben Beaton
>
> "[Postmodernism is associated with] a cultural, intellectual, or
> artistic state lacking a clear central hierarchy or organizing
> principle and embodying extreme complexity, contradiction, ambiguity,
> diversity, and interconnectedness or interreferentiality."
> - Wikipedia
>
>
> Based on the directions of these movements, and what I see in the
> world around me, it doesn't really look like things are on a path back
> to tradition.  "New sincerity" might be a relatively accurate way to
> look at some aspects of emerging cultures.
>
> Traditionalism used the assumption of "rightness" in the time-tested
> way of things as the basis for it's norms.
>
> Modernism questioned the assumption that traditions were best, but
> still assumed that there was a "right" way to do things, and tried to
> find that right way.
>
> Postmodernism questions the idea that the concept of "right" is even
> valid.  As Ben mentioned about "centralized narrative", it sort of
> broke this down.
>
> But in my mind what's emerging isn't a return to a centralized
> narrative, but a combination of "I'm ok, you're ok" and "wait and see"
> positions.
>
> With regard to social interactions and personal meaning, this involves
> retaining the value of personal narrative over centralized external
> narrative, but without the forced "different for the sake of provoking
> a response" attitude associated with postmodernism.  This is the "new
> sincerity", the whole "be true to yourself and let others be true to
> themselves" attitude.
>
> With regard to the phenomenal world in general I think this involves a
> clash and sometimes synthesis of two ideals:
>
> 1) Empiricism - Don't try to force meaning on the universe, it has no
> meaning except that which you have for it.  Even without inherent
> meaning though it still has rules and trends which you can understand
> through thorough observation.
>
> 2) Whimsy - Ascribe any meaning you want to phenomena, as long as you
> don't try to impose this value on others.  Criticizing where someone
> else finds meaning is taboo.
>
> I don't really have a good idea of the full impact these trends would
> have on the Occult Underground though.  My only guesses would be the
> emergence of more and more individualized schools of magic, with
> Avatars becoming fewer or less powerful.  And maybe the emergence some
> sort of Meta-Adept, whose power derives not from imposing a view on
> the universe, but by seeking to observe and understand the forces and
> rules that govern all occult powers.
>
> Just idle speculation.
>
> - Peter K.
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:39 AM, Benn Beaton <benn.beaton at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Unitarian occultism would be a very interesting approach.  Perhaps if we
> > considered some form of Synthesis between the adeptpaths and traditional
> > ritual.  Perhaps purely as an NPC conceit.  or what if rather than a
> full
> > blown adept path they minimised the obsession away from studying the
> full
> > blown path and instead have been taught a single spell.  The randomness
> and
> > free nature has been removed in favour of a regimented disciplined
> approach
> > (maybe things like a blood cult that learns the body as a still pond
> spell
> > from epidermimancy)  Throw in some hokey non-traditional buddism and the
> > chinese could be in for a shock!
> >
> > In order to be anti-postmodern the group would need a grand narritive
> that
> > allows for magic.  I think that the best way to simulate this would be
> with
> > existing abilities (possibloy weakened) and a paradigm skill that
> emphasises
> > the disciplined approach.  Perhaps even have the group responsible for
> > upgrading rituals?  After all whats a boy to do when a ritual calls for
> dodo
> > blood.
> >
> > Of coursethis whole idea sounds like a very novel version of a room of
> > renunciation.
> >
> > On 4/6/08, Russell Rayburn <rusrayburn at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Benn Beaton <benn.beaton at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > To engage in a "new sincerity"
> > > > would seem to be a traditionalism and so in occult terms you would
> have
> > a
> > > > rise in Authentic Thaumaturgy(sp damn i'm crap) and Avatar use,
> possibly
> > > > both.
> > >
> > > Seems likely.
> > >
> > > Given that post-modernism is "weird for the sake of weird", all about
> > > the individual perspective, et. al. then a strengthening of more
> > > traditional forms seems inevitable in a post-modern world.
> > >
> > > On the other hand, you could have something like "big tent magic",
> > > where "alternative" methods are seen as individual expressions of a
> > > fundamental truth ( i.e. magic ).  Sort of like unitarian magic, if
> > > you will.  That might preserve the individual perspective and permit
> > > disparate groups to work together ( or at least kill each other less
> > > ).
> > >
> > > Hand in hand with a more traditional view of magic might be a
> > > persecution of the old order; newly trained authentic thaumaturgists
> > > hunting down old dipsomancers and epideromancers might make for an
> > > interesting sleeper campaign.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > I'm writing an unauthorized autobiography.
> > >
> > > http://cthuloidgunnut.blogspot.com/
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