[UA] Post-postmodern

Tue Apr 8 00:39:31 PDT 2008

To maintain the posistion of devils advocate I think it would be
interesting to deconstruct some of your points.  This is mostly to show that
there is a strong modernist thrust to this community and in doing so show
that it is a traditionalist venture when considered from the mindset of
liberalism/conservatism and also to show hidden grand narratives that emerge
from it.

"Since then the system of ethics is, while not subjective, still an emergent
property of the community, it is fundamentally something to be chosen."  In
this point community is avoidable.  The benefits that are to be had are
available to anyone who follows the rules.  The rules are set by the
community which emplies that there is some form of ruling body.  Even
allowing for Slave free Athenian democracy The first members of the
community have more weight than subsequant memebers becaus ethey can channel
acceptable activity.  If this was a liberal founding group then the society
might have some mutagenic properties but since this is offering power to a
set of human beings it could as easily be conservative and become an Old
boys network.  The organisers maintain a framing narrative that enables them
to minimise apocalyptic change.

"A loose analogy that seemed to occur to me is a restatement of the market
of values as a social network. Ideas are subscribed to because they are able
to sell themselves well - they have attractive profiles and know how to play
the social network game, allowing them to gain more friends and
contacts."  As a social network founded by the founders metaframe the
intrinsic valuation schema for new ideas is already dominated by an
intrinsic influence.  The very nature of attractive is to be attractive to
the metaframe of the organisation.  This needant be perfect but anything
that would be anathematic to the organisation will naturally deselect.  Note
the lack of Trotskyite communists in investment banking.

The effects of the organisation on the varying paths of the underground
would depend on the metaframe of the organisation and the varying Cults and
Cabals of U.A. provide lots of examples.

"And now? The Age of Ascension begins - humanity begins to seize power from
the Dukes, and take charge of it's future as it heads more quickly towards
the next universe. It's not about what you are - it's about who you sway."

Now this is interesting.  Essentially for an ascension revolution you would
need to increase the level of support that the revolutionary faction (the
underground) has from the politically orientated centralists (the occult
mainstream)  this would mean that Riots would have to become weaker as
people accepted magic into their world views.  As humanity seems to be the
N.S.M it makes for an excellant plot device especially because the driving
thrust to improve the world through controlling the avatars is entirely
modernistic.  It implies change can be entirely positive so long as its
controlled.  It implies that progress can be made on intrinsic spiritual
problems and smacks of apocalyptic messianism.  The pre-exisitng order for
this is an authoritarian ascension programme reminiscant of the political
projects of post populist politics. (wow thats a lot of ps)

In short the N.S.M makes for a wonderful example of authoritarian control
even if it looks like a group dynamic.  After all Juntas can be just as
totalitarian as Dictatorships.

-Luke

>
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 2:06 AM, Benn Beaton <benn.beaton at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > You make some interesting points but as i find your arguement's points
> > to be compelling i find your conclusion less so.
> > This to me is quite important as i think it is a differance of language
> > use from both of us. Not that this is a common postmodern problem or
> > anything:)
> >
> > In your arguement you state...
> >
> > "it doesn't really look like things are on a path back
> >
> > to tradition.  "New sincerity(n.s.m)" might be a relatively accurate way
> > to
> > look at some aspects of emerging cultures."
> >
> > and
> >
> > "But in my mind what's emerging isn't a return to a centralized
> > narrative, but a combination of "I'm ok, you're ok" and "wait and see"
> > positions."
> >
> > However your quotes seem to only consider premodern traditions.  If we
> > consider modernist traditions like scientific method, liberalism and
> > conservatism, then might this "new sincerity movement" be akin to a
> > combination of these.  If we ditch the philosophy for ten seconds and look
> > at democraticly constructed states with coalition governments then what
> > usually emerges is a power sharing arrangement based around societal
> > concience and ethical concern.  Indeed it is not uncommon for an old party
> > to emerge as a party of power and require a smaller partner which can force
> > legislation in order to guarrantee supply to the government.  If we use this
> > as a model to consider the three outlined traditions with the
> > ultramodernistic scientific method as party of power and the conflicting
> > liberal and conservative ideals as junior parties to this coalition then
> > what you would have is a modernistic movement that would change character
> > based on the political ideology it was running with.  If it had a liberal
> > agenda then it might be about improving peoples lot in life. If it had a
> > conservative agenda then it would seek to maintain the established set of
> > rules untill evidence showed that change would be better than the
> > maintenance of a rule set.
> >
> > Later when you speak of empiricism and whimsy i feel that you are again
> > speaking of common political traditions of regulation and tollerance.  21st
> > century politics shows that people tend to want a bit of both and switch
> > between poles to a degree based on individual issues.
> >
> > As for how this would affect the Underground I see the liberal idea that
> > people can follow any path they choose to be more embracing of avatars.  Its
> > how he is would become a common refrain, She's a leo, It might be harder to
> > avoid breaking taboo for an unconcious avatar but other than that it should
> > be fine.  I also see the conservative model being one that embraces
> > traditional avatar notions of duty to a cause (pilgrim), defeatying an
> > enemy(warrior).  As for Adepts, given that they are born of obsession If
> > they were a part of a modernist empirical tradition like the N.S.M then they
> > would be less likly to use random magic on the fly and more likely to be
> > either calcify with specific spell effects.  The movement might even have a
> > specific adept type the way the cult of the naked goddess has pornomancy but
> > again this would depend entirely on the details of the cults agenda.
> >
> > The idea that you can impose understanding on the universe is after all
> > an excellant place to build a symbolic tension.
> >
> >
> > On 4/6/08, Peter Kisner <kisnerp at gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > I'm not well versed in these movements, so please pardon the fact that
> > > what I'm about to say is pulled directly from my ass.  But this
> > > discussion's been niggling at my mind for the last few days so I feel
> > > compelled to chime in anyway.
> > >
> > > * Traditionalism:
> > > The traditional way of accomplishing things is good enough. (ie. the
> > > old stories and meanings are adequate)
> > >
> > > * Modernism:
> > > "[Modernism] is a trend of thought that affirms the power of human
> > > beings to create, improve, and reshape their environment, with the aid
> > > of scientific knowledge, technology or practical experimentation.
> > > Modernism encouraged the re-examination of every aspect of existence,
> > > from commerce to philosophy, with the goal of finding that which was
> > > 'holding back' progress, and replacing it with new, progressive and
> > > therefore better, ways of reaching the same end."
> > > - Wikipedia
> > >
> > > * Postmodernism
> > > "To be postmodern is to reject the idea of a core centralised
> > > narrative to describe the world."
> > > - Ben Beaton
> > >
> > > "[Postmodernism is associated with] a cultural, intellectual, or
> > > artistic state lacking a clear central hierarchy or organizing
> > > principle and embodying extreme complexity, contradiction, ambiguity,
> > > diversity, and interconnectedness or interreferentiality."
> > > - Wikipedia
> > >
> > >
> > > Based on the directions of these movements, and what I see in the
> > > world around me, it doesn't really look like things are on a path back
> > > to tradition.  "New sincerity" might be a relatively accurate way to
> > > look at some aspects of emerging cultures.
> > >
> > > Traditionalism used the assumption of "rightness" in the time-tested
> > > way of things as the basis for it's norms.
> > >
> > > Modernism questioned the assumption that traditions were best, but
> > > still assumed that there was a "right" way to do things, and tried to
> > > find that right way.
> > >
> > > Postmodernism questions the idea that the concept of "right" is even
> > > valid.  As Ben mentioned about "centralized narrative", it sort of
> > > broke this down.
> > >
> > > But in my mind what's emerging isn't a return to a centralized
> > > narrative, but a combination of "I'm ok, you're ok" and "wait and see"
> > > positions.
> > >
> > > With regard to social interactions and personal meaning, this involves
> > > retaining the value of personal narrative over centralized external
> > > narrative, but without the forced "different for the sake of provoking
> > > a response" attitude associated with postmodernism.  This is the "new
> > > sincerity", the whole "be true to yourself and let others be true to
> > > themselves" attitude.
> > >
> > > With regard to the phenomenal world in general I think this involves a
> > > clash and sometimes synthesis of two ideals:
> > >
> > > 1) Empiricism - Don't try to force meaning on the universe, it has no
> > > meaning except that which you have for it.  Even without inherent
> > > meaning though it still has rules and trends which you can understand
> > > through thorough observation.
> > >
> > > 2) Whimsy - Ascribe any meaning you want to phenomena, as long as you
> > > don't try to impose this value on others.  Criticizing where someone
> > > else finds meaning is taboo.
> > >
> > > I don't really have a good idea of the full impact these trends would
> > > have on the Occult Underground though.  My only guesses would be the
> > > emergence of more and more individualized schools of magic, with
> > > Avatars becoming fewer or less powerful.  And maybe the emergence some
> > > sort of Meta-Adept, whose power derives not from imposing a view on
> > > the universe, but by seeking to observe and understand the forces and
> > > rules that govern all occult powers.
> > >
> > > Just idle speculation.
> > >
> > > - Peter K.
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 4:39 AM, Benn Beaton <benn.beaton at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > Unitarian occultism would be a very interesting approach.  Perhaps
> > > if we
> > > > considered some form of Synthesis between the adeptpaths and
> > > traditional
> > > > ritual.  Perhaps purely as an NPC conceit.  or what if rather than a
> > > full
> > > > blown adept path they minimised the obsession away from studying the
> > > full
> > > > blown path and instead have been taught a single spell.  The
> > > randomness and
> > > > free nature has been removed in favour of a regimented disciplined
> > > approach
> > > > (maybe things like a blood cult that learns the body as a still pond
> > > spell
> > > > from epidermimancy)  Throw in some hokey non-traditional buddism and
> > > the
> > > > chinese could be in for a shock!
> > > >
> > > > In order to be anti-postmodern the group would need a grand
> > > narritive that
> > > > allows for magic.  I think that the best way to simulate this would
> > > be with
> > > > existing abilities (possibloy weakened) and a paradigm skill that
> > > emphasises
> > > > the disciplined approach.  Perhaps even have the group responsible
> > > for
> > > > upgrading rituals?  After all whats a boy to do when a ritual calls
> > > for dodo
> > > > blood.
> > > >
> > > > Of coursethis whole idea sounds like a very novel version of a room
> > > of
> > > > renunciation.
> > > >
> > > > On 4/6/08, Russell Rayburn <rusrayburn at gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > On Sat, Apr 5, 2008 at 4:28 AM, Benn Beaton <benn.beaton at gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > > To engage in a "new sincerity"
> > > > > > would seem to be a traditionalism and so in occult terms you
> > > would have
> > > > a
> > > > > > rise in Authentic Thaumaturgy(sp damn i'm crap) and Avatar use,
> > > possibly
> > > > > > both.
> > > > >
> > > > > Seems likely.
> > > > >
> > > > > Given that post-modernism is "weird for the sake of weird", all
> > > about
> > > > > the individual perspective, et. al. then a strengthening of more
> > > > > traditional forms seems inevitable in a post-modern world.
> > > > >
> > > > > On the other hand, you could have something like "big tent magic",
> > > > > where "alternative" methods are seen as individual expressions of
> > > a
> > > > > fundamental truth ( i.e. magic ).  Sort of like unitarian magic,
> > > if
> > > > > you will.  That might preserve the individual perspective and
> > > permit
> > > > > disparate groups to work together ( or at least kill each other
> > > less
> > > > > ).
> > > > >
> > > > > Hand in hand with a more traditional view of magic might be a
> > > > > persecution of the old order; newly trained authentic
> > > thaumaturgists
> > > > > hunting down old dipsomancers and epideromancers might make for an
> > > > > interesting sleeper campaign.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > I'm writing an unauthorized autobiography.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://cthuloidgunnut.blogspot.com/
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